littlewhitey's Servers Forum (SA-MP/VC-MP/MTA/Zomboid)
VC-MP Server - 51.38.93.130:8192 => General Discussion => Discussion Archive => Topic started by: AdTec_224 on August 14, 2015, 10:21:54 PM
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Ok so this will the last topic i make on the subject.
This is the reason why the framelimiter is locked at 30fps:
the GTA3 engine was designed poorly and the physics and AI were tied to the framerate of the rendering engine, which in turn means that the game will only run properly when it's capped at 30fps. Add to the mix that since most VC:MP players don't even have PCs powerful enough to run the game at 30fps, people will be running the game with very different framerates, so increasing the limit to 60fps _will_ make overall sync worse.
Some more quotes from other members of the vcmp dev team:
<&VRocker> 'omg 60 fps is needed in gtavc'
<&VRocker> if you knew how the game worked you'd realise that 60fps is worse
<maxorator> the problem here is consistency I suppose, that since there is a slight difference in physics with different framerates, all players should ideally play at the same framerate
And about the so called player count drop:
Since the change the player count hasn't really dropped at all, we still are the biggest server in the vc-mp community which leads me to assume most players don't really care either way and it's just a select few causing unnecessary problems, either due to not understanding what we've been trying to explain or just bitching for sake of it.
And while some of you may not agree with the decision please respect it as acting like 5 year olds won't change anything.
- AdTec_224
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Just adding my comment on this as i've been hearing about the people bitching and moaning at AdTec for limiting the framerate and I can see why he's getting pissed off.
This post points out pretty much everything you need to know as to why it's limited to 30fps. Like Juppi said, the game is coded horribly and things are processed on the rendering thread with no time limiting done. What this means is that the game expects a 33 millisecond wait between processing things (33 milliseconds would be 1 frame at 30 fps, 33*30 = 999ms so 1 second), if it's faster or slower then the game isn't running how rockstar intended. The side effects of this is that if you have more FPS, say 60, then physics processing occurs every 12ish milliseconds. Now, you may be thinking 'well that sounds great, physics updating faster means less problems right?' WRONG
For some reason in Rockstars infinate wisdom, some parts have an actual wait timer on while others just go off the rendering thread. So, here you are... processing things at 12ms BUT OH WAIT! Bullet hit detections are processing every 33 milliseconds! Before you know it you're missing a bullet collision a frame and things start going a bit screwy. Now, 1 frame missed processing is barely noticable (although bullets sometimes pass through objects, depending on their position) it gets really really bad at even higher framerates.
I can't remember if specifically bullets are processed on a timer, i was using that as an example. What I do remember is the game processes object movement speed based on the frame rate. From what i remember movement speed does some funky calculations which, for some unknown reason, uses the time between frames as a sort of multiplier for speed. This would fuck things up in multiplayer as you would have some people moving faster than others. Nopw, you'd think as the framerate is doubled it'd go double speed but for some reason the speed increase is slight, just enough so you'd get the edge over people in a race. A good way to test would be a drag race in a server with no limiter enforced. One person lock the framerate to 30 and another to 60 and both in the same cars. I guarentee you that the guy with 60 will win by quite a way.
As Juppi mentioned, the AI is also dependant on the framerate in GTA, okay that is irrelevant for multiplayer but if you want to see just how screwy it gets... turn off the frame limiter on a high end PC and watch the AI commit suicide. With 300fps in GTA peds start jumping infront of cars and falling out of the map, it's hilarious to watch but it reenforces the fact that the 30fps limit is there for a reason.
The best thing about all this is the reason why people want 60fps. There is no legit reason! People 'think' they need 60fps 'to be all shiney' but in fact a game such as GTA is fine at 30. Hell, GTA:SA ran at 24fps by default and nobody really cared. There are a few games where 60fps is needed, one of which being a first person shooter but GTA is not one of these. People seem to think 60fps is important but it really isn't. I'm playing GTAV at 40fps perfectly fine and that's a far superior game to this. Speaking of GTAV... i think i'll go kill AdTec_224 in it now :D
For my final signing off of my wall of text, i will end by saying... if you really want to moan at somebody for 30fps... cry at Rockstar for making a console port and putting next to no effort in for porting it properly to PC.
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So read all so does this mean 60fps is coming back?
sorry I had to, </joke>
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I ain't got nothing against 30 FPS, and the bitching part on #miami-dade was done for the lols.
Though, the following quote is false:
And about the so called player count drop:
Since the change the player count hasn't really dropped at all, we still are the biggest server in the vc-mp community which leads me to assume most players don't really care either way and it's just a select few causing unnecessary problems, either due to not understanding what we've been trying to explain or just bitching for sake of it.
We've been slowly losing players ever since the enforcement of 30 FPS. The only players we get now are new-to-VCMP ones, which also end up leaving and not coming back.
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I ain't got nothing against 30 FPS, and the bitching part on #miami-dade was done for the lols.
Though, the following quote is false:
And about the so called player count drop:
Since the change the player count hasn't really dropped at all, we still are the biggest server in the vc-mp community which leads me to assume most players don't really care either way and it's just a select few causing unnecessary problems, either due to not understanding what we've been trying to explain or just bitching for sake of it.
We've been slowly losing players ever since the enforcement of 30 FPS. The only players we get now are new-to-VCMP ones, which also end up leaving and not coming back.
(I'm not even in staff but just posting my opinion)
As compare to 0.3's 30fps, 0.4's 30fps is too much laggy. That is the reason i saw LWs daily players are moving to unofficial server(s) and LWs is losing players.
And while some of you may not agree with the decision please respect it as acting like 5 year olds won't change anything.
not some of you, almost all players aren't agree with this decision.. :-\
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at least I can say I tried, even with my topics removed. lol
My point and probably many other people's point stands: Frame Limiter should not be forcefully enabled for some minor sync fixes. And maybe they're not minor, but they feel minor. Nobody noticed any changes, and even if there are any, people want to play with "sync issues". If they won't get what they want, they'll go to another server. And they'll do right.
Now..:
Since the change the player count hasn't really dropped at all, we still are the biggest server in the vc-mp community which leads me to assume most players don't really care either way and it's just a select few causing unnecessary problems, either due to not understanding what we've been trying to explain or just bitching for sake of it.
still are the biggest server
Exactly, "still are" the biggest somehow, but that's bound to change: hopefully official servers release with an ACTUAL 0.4 script that uses 0.4 features, here, you could name it [0.3z on 0.4] and block all the setconfig commands, and bam you have 0.3 all over again. In the name of better sync of course.
most players don't really care either way
Sure - that's why the player count was losing with an unofficial server that has a bad script.
Still claiming the player count isn't lowering?
(https://littlewhiteys.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg.vc-mp.eu%2Fimages%2FNglz.png&hash=523bde3d6c925574af175614f77aa054575a4348)
or just bitching for sake of it.
If you call 'bitching', me creating topics and community members commenting on them, well.. lol
acting like 5 year olds won't change anything.
Wondering who's acting like a 5 year old by removing my topics, ignoring my PM's, calling us all <~AdTec_224> now i just get loads of incompetent idiots moaning they don't like it changed or <&AdTec_224> typical vcmp idiots
And while some of you may not agree
No, not some of you. Nobody agrees with this retarded decision. Nobody. Or what, 2 to 4 people?
Also, as I have said in my topic (which naturally was removed, because why respond to criticism, right?)
This is what maxorator, an active VC-MP developer said:
<krystianoo> can 60 fps cause any sync issues
<maxorator> well, it shouldn't make anything worse
<maxorator> with fps 30 you might send sync packets a little less frequently
<maxorator> well, it can make cars you control move a little differently for other people
<maxorator> but that's quite subtle
<maxorator> might increase the chance of warps a bit but mostly it would just make the movement a little bit less smooth (other see you accelerating/decelerating a bit when actually you are moving at constant speed)
Anyway, time to find a new playground (server) since this won't be changed. Enjoy the cinematic experience in the name of better synchronization!
cya!
i think i'll go kill AdTec_224 in it now :D
can i as well?
Also, if someone believes that I never made a topic:
http://img.vc-mp.eu/images/6OGcEdqtx.png (http://img.vc-mp.eu/images/6OGcEdqtx.png)
EDIT: only edit by me (AdTec_224) has been to change the screenshot to a link rather than a full size screenshot.
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I don't understand what the hell is wrong with 30 FPS? I feel no difference between GTA VC and VCMP, which would add more life-like thing.
Regards'
Because you didn't even play vcmp on 60fps thatswhy you didn't feel any defference.
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(https://littlewhiteys.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2F9Ior7n8.png&hash=6305f1174353f19a1a96a7f8798b42051f5d638c)
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Also: removed previous posts so people focus more on the real issue here (which is the FPS Limit) rather than an argument
I recommend you to do the same ;)
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I see you did it! Thanks ;)
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Also: removed previous posts so people focus more on the real issue here (which is the FPS Limit) rather than an argument
I recommend you to do the same ;)
Agreed!
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Well i am not aware if the FPS issue BUT i did notice the drop in player count, i had no idea why it got down.
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Still claiming the player count isn't lowering?
(https://littlewhiteys.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg.vc-mp.eu%2Fimages%2FNglz.png&hash=523bde3d6c925574af175614f77aa054575a4348)
1 data point does not an accurate data-set make. Here is something a bit more accurate taken at random over the last 2 days: Link 1 (http://adtec.vrocker-hosting.co.uk/f/1/vcmp4.jpg), Link 2 (http://adtec.vrocker-hosting.co.uk/f/1/vcmp4-1.jpg), Link 3 (http://adtec.vrocker-hosting.co.uk/f/1/vcmp4-2.jpg). As you can see for the most part it's still business as usual, however i won't deny that we have lost a few people over this which is sad but that's their decision and as you can see doesn't really impact the server all that much.
or just bitching for sake of it.
If you call 'bitching', me creating topics and community members commenting on them, well.. lol
acting like 5 year olds won't change anything.
Wondering who's acting like a 5 year old by removing my topics, ignoring my PM's, calling us all <~AdTec_224> now i just get loads of incompetent idiots moaning they don't like it changed or <&AdTec_224> typical vcmp idiots
While it is true i have said those things that was mainly me getting pissed off at the abusing messages I've received over the last few days over such an inconsequential change. As someone who has been around the vc-mp community since the beginning (10 years) i would have hoped people would have a little more respect and understanding than this.
And while some of you may not agree
No, not some of you. Nobody agrees with this retarded decision. Nobody. Or what, 2 to 4 people?
Did you actually read the rest of that sentence? please respect it
everyone has their own opinion but a few people moaning about it won't change the fact it is better this way.
Also, as I have said in my topic (which naturally was removed, because why respond to criticism, right?)
The original topic (still in the suggestion board) was locked as people were clearly attempting to incite flame war so the offending posts were removed and the topic locked. The second post was removed so i could post this one in it's place in an attempt to make people understand why it has been changed.
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Nobody gives a shit about 1-2 bullets not being synced or some 2 milliseconds speed advantage VRocker was talking about or w/e. Turn off the frame limiter otherwise we will have real problems with the player count.
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The server WILL have players as long as there is no fully-functional, good script server that will compete against LW. Right now, there is none.
As for the FPS case, I don't think anyone cares about a bullet or three missed, because it doesn't matter THAT much in fights.
And surely NOBODY cares about a car going slightly faster on a server that's mostly centered about TDM.
So if you want perfect sync, it's worth it, but from my point of view here this just looks like the first nail to the coffin: players don't like it. And it's not a few. It's 10 or above for sure. Despite what you think, it really is a big number.
Also:
The original topic (still in the suggestion board) was locked as people were clearly attempting to incite flame war so the offending posts were removed and the topic locked. The second post was removed so i could post this one in it's place in an attempt to make people understand why it has been changed.
The only person that commented on this topic but yourself was Eddy; nobody else did. I was refreshing all the time to see for responses.
seems like an excuse to me :p
Now, I'm going to enjoy 60 fps in gta: online with a 120 mph limit on vehicles. have a nice day!
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I just noticed that CPU usage on 30 FPS is much lower. Maybe that's why players lagged on 60 FPS so much.
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Nobody gives a shit about 1-2 bullets not being synced or some 2 milliseconds speed advantage VRocker was talking about or w/e. Turn off the frame limiter otherwise we will have real problems with the player count.
Wait a minute so you guys are actually saying you don't care if bullets don't work properly on Team Deathmatch server?!
(https://littlewhiteys.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fadtec.vrocker-hosting.co.uk%2Ff%2F1%2Fdafuq.jpg&hash=a42a4594086ed240f0a0293c8332724a36812daf)
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Maybe we don't care because BARELY any bullets weren't working properly.
Maybe that's why.
You refuse to see the bigger picture. Why would you want better sync if barely anyone will play at your server? The server still has players, yes, but judging from the fact that an unofficial server with a not-so-good script had like 30 players again today, the playercount will start dropping more and more.
Give the community what it wants or it will refuse to play. That's how it was and still is, and probably how it will be.
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All this time we played in 60fps there WAS NOT 1 SINGLE REPORT of bullets not going in. I hosted the LW Cup and we had more than 60 players online at a time for more than a couple of days and i watched probably more than 30-40 duels. There was no problem with the sync.
Most of the time theory is just theory.
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If anything to be done about the player count, enforce 60 FPS instead of 30. That way everyone will have the same FPS, or at least, most of players.
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Nobody gives a shit about 1-2 bullets not being synced or some 2 milliseconds speed advantage VRocker was talking about or w/e. Turn off the frame limiter otherwise we will have real problems with the player count.
Wait a minute so you guys are actually saying you don't care if bullets don't work properly on Team Deathmatch server?!
Think about it, if 60 fps was that really big of a problem, would we still have got 60 players online?
To me it seems that the perfect sync with 30 fps is losing players as opposed to the "shitty uplayable sync" that 60 fps offers.
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I just noticed that CPU usage on 30 FPS is much lower. Maybe that's why players lagged on 60 FPS so much.
To be fair VC and VC:MP have to do additional calculations at higher framerates anyway.
I have no input on this, please don't solicit me for it.
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I just noticed that CPU usage on 30 FPS is much lower. Maybe that's why players lagged on 60 FPS so much.
To be fair VC and VC:MP have to do additional calculations at higher framerates anyway.
I have no input on this, please don't solicit me for it.
I'm fine with either of them. What bothers me is the large player loss, that's it.
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30fps are really irritating. 60fps were fine and so smooth, and there wasn't any sync problem. let me show you a video where I was driving Skimmer and Knuckles was standing up on skimmer and there wasn't any problem, he didn't fall down until I over turned the plane. but since fps limiter is enabled, we can't even pass sea. or even stay for 5 seconds on plane. The sync works shit like 0.3's on 30fps. and player sync lags too. I seriously can't fight properly on 30fps.
http://tinypic.com/r/24njofc/8 (http://tinypic.com/r/24njofc/8)
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I really respect AdTec's discussion but I think there's no point of keeping the server at 30 FPS while other servers are using 60 FPS lock. People got used of playing at 60 FPS cap and because of that we are losing too much PLAYERS (http://i.imgur.com/fHoP7zb.png). I think we should just reverse this change and prevent more loss of players.
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You may decrease Pings limit but no FPS... @BloodClaw where are you? #No30FPS
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This is what we called a real PLAYER loss #No30fps
(https://littlewhiteys.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FNHQpUzo.png%3F1&hash=32138aa16d3c1c73f969dd94c5ac3cdc9247f6c5)
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This is what we called a real PLAYER loss #No30fps
(https://littlewhiteys.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FNHQpUzo.png%3F1&hash=32138aa16d3c1c73f969dd94c5ac3cdc9247f6c5)
StraightFire lagger lol! ???
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This is what we called a real PLAYER loss #No30fps
This is what I call posting a screenshot of the player count on an early Monday morning when player count is always lowest.
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But at that time the players who used to play in LWs was playing in other unofficial servers so this isn't player loss?, i will not add name of the server(s)
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There isn't such drastic player count drop but we should admit that there is a reduction in players on the peak times when the count was over 40 players which has now dropped to 20-30.
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There isn't such drastic player count drop but we should admit that there is a reduction in players on the peak times when the count was over 40 players which has now dropped to 20-30.
Which is probably because players generally have a life in the months of June, July and August, and are possibly on holidays during the aforementioned months.
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There isn't such drastic player count drop but we should admit that there is a reduction in players on the peak times when the count was over 40 players which has now dropped to 20-30.
Which is probably because players generally have a life in the months of June, July and August, and are possibly on holidays during the aforementioned months.
Are you people forgetting that most people playing here are still in school and May til early August is their summer holiday? The player count always drops around this time of year, and will most likely increase again come December time.
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@Force the point isn't that this servers player count is droping the point is that all the players who used to play here have moved to another server lets take a look at both's player count (after the 30 FPS rule was enforced)
LW's 19/100
Other server 30/40
and on normal times
LW's 24/100
other server 25/40
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ROFL, just put the frame limiter off and stop with all this drama shit.
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I'd just like to point out this topic wasn't created to discuss if the frame-limiter will be turn off or not, it was created to inform people of why the frame-limiter has been turned on.
I'll also just leave this here as it's related:
Mon 04:45::. <&VRocker-Work> anyway, i would understand the moaning if the admin (in this case, AdTec_224) was limiting it to 30 because he was incapable of running at 60 so he was doing it for his own personal gain
Mon 04:45::. <&VRocker-Work> but the fact is, he's doing this to keep the game fair for everybody
Mon 04:45::. <&VRocker-Work> sure, there will always be people who disagree with any decision that he makes
Mon 04:45::. <&VRocker-Work> that's just how the world is
Mon 04:45::. <&VRocker-Work> but bitching and moaning for a solid week wont make him change his mind
Mon 04:45::. <&VRocker-Work> remember, this is AdTec_224
Mon 04:46::. <&VRocker-Work> he's a stubborn bugger
Mon 04:46::. <&VRocker-Work> push him and he'll just stand his ground even more
Mon 04:46::. <WiLs0n`> At least AdTec_224 saved other players from getting rape
Mon 04:47::. <krystianoo> point taken, if he wants to go for 'perfect sync', so be it ;p
Mon 04:48::. <&VRocker-Work> and for the people who are saying that the server will lose players
Mon 04:48::. <&VRocker-Work> from what ad has told me, that hasnt happened
Mon 04:48::. <&VRocker-Work> and it may lose the 5% of people who are moaning
Mon 04:48::. <&VRocker-Work> it's not like it'll lose the entire community
Mon 04:48::. <WiLs0n`> 37/100
Mon 04:48::. <WiLs0n`> atm
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Mon 04:45::. <&VRocker-Work> anyway, i would understand the moaning if the admin (in this case, AdTec_224) was limiting it to 30 because he was incapable of running at 60 so he was doing it for his own personal gain
Mon 04:45::. <&VRocker-Work> but the fact is, he's doing this to keep the game fair for everybody
Mon 04:45::. <&VRocker-Work> sure, there will always be people who disagree with any decision that he makes
Mon 04:45::. <&VRocker-Work> that's just how the world is
Mon 04:45::. <&VRocker-Work> but bitching and moaning for a solid week wont make him change his mind
Mon 04:45::. <&VRocker-Work> remember, this is AdTec_224
Mon 04:46::. <&VRocker-Work> he's a stubborn bugger
Mon 04:46::. <&VRocker-Work> push him and he'll just stand his ground even more
Mon 04:46::. <WiLs0n`> At least AdTec_224 saved other players from getting rape
Mon 04:47::. <krystianoo> point taken, if he wants to go for 'perfect sync', so be it ;p
Mon 04:48::. <&VRocker-Work> and for the people who are saying that the server will lose players
Mon 04:48::. <&VRocker-Work> from what ad has told me, that hasnt happened
Mon 04:48::. <&VRocker-Work> and it may lose the 5% of people who are moaning
Mon 04:48::. <&VRocker-Work> it's not like it'll lose the entire community
Mon 04:48::. <WiLs0n`> 37/100
Mon 04:48::. <WiLs0n`> atm
Admit that :)
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There isn't such drastic player count drop but we should admit that there is a reduction in players on the peak times when the count was over 40 players which has now dropped to 20-30.
Edit: No more player loss, there are over 40 players in the server plenty of times.
Which is probably because players generally have a life in the months of June, July and August, and are possibly on holidays during the aforementioned months.
Seems so.
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There isn't such drastic player count drop but we should admit that there is a reduction in players on the peak times when the count was over 40 players which has now dropped to 20-30.
Edit: No more player loss, there are over 40 players in the server plenty of times.
Which is probably because players generally have a life in the months of June, July and August, and are possibly on holidays during the aforementioned months.
Seems so.
Usmanulamin please tell me when the server got 40 players after framelimiter was forced to on?
http://postimg.org/image/btkfsq5zr/ (http://postimg.org/image/btkfsq5zr/)
have a look at this it tells you the actual player count of LW and the player count of anther server with a bad script which has 60 fps enabled.
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@Azal, im looking at the player count since past 3-4 days, while i was in game, the count was 49, day before yesterday it was 45+ and yesterday it was around 40. (Pakistan Time 8:30pm +/-)
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Azal, I too was first uncomfortable with 30 FPS, but I got used to it. If LW's loses it's usual population, there is no problem, many GTA VC Players are alive, who are not aware of VCMP who will soon be aware of it, and obviously, they will start playing in servers which got some people, they will realize that LW's could be better as it got 30 FPS as they are used to GTA VC Which's got 30 FPS, and will stay here rather than go into other servers, unless we the members of LW's stop insulting people, like you do(PM-@Azal). If you crack jokes at them, they will be insulted and would leave LW's or the whole VCMP Community. If you still oppose, leave LW's there are other servers which have 60 FPS.
Regards'
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I suggest you let this topic die, since the developer has made it really clear that he is not planning on changing his decision so arguing over this is a waste of time.
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I suggest you let this topic die, since the developer has made it really clear that he is not planning on changing his decision so arguing over this is a waste of time.
Locked :)